Red Kelly was one of the best D of the 1950s and possibly the greatest offensive D to yet play in the NHL. And then he was traded to the Leafs and famously switched to centre. Throughout his career he won more Stanley Cups than any other non-Canadien player. He is one of only 10 players to ever have the three-year Hall of Fame waiting requirement waived.
So where does Red Kelly rank all time?
Listen to us talk about Red Kelly’s Hall of Fame and GOAT case here:
Sid Abel won the Hart and made a number of end-of-season All Star teams. But he was often not the best player on his team – especially in the playoffs – and a lot of his regular season success came centering Gordie Howe and Ted Lindsay.
Bill Gadsby was one of the great pre-Orr offensive D, scoring more points than any other pure defender at his retirement. (Only Red Kelly had more and he’d bee playing centre for years when Gadsby retired.) He also has plenty of end-of-season All Star Team appearances and a number of Norris nominations.
But his teams never won and the Plus/Minus stats we have for the end of his career are flat out bad.
Does Bill Gadsby belong in the Hockey Hall of Fame? Listen to us talk about his case here:
From 1962 until 2000, nearly 40 years, Terry Sawchuk was the All Time leader in Wins. From 1964 until 2007, Sawchuk was the All Time leader in Shutouts, a record many thought was unbreakable. From 1961 until 2001, a half century, no other goalie had more Point Shares.
These metrics make it seem like Terry Sawchuk was one of the greatest goalies of all time. But the bloom is off the rose and now a lot of people think that’s not true; that, aside from a stretch at the beginning of his career when he was truly great, he was more of a compiler.
Listen to us talk about Sawchuk’s case for goalie GOAT status here:
Cooney Weiland set the single-season points record in 1930, but it was a banner year for the league and multiple other players could have broken the record if he didn’t. He led the playoffs in points twice, too. Seems like maybe a slam dunk.
However, these were the only great years of Weiland’s career and his career was pretty middling otherwise. Does someone like this belong in the Hockey Hall of Fame? Listen to us talk about Cooney Weiland’s Hall of Fame case here:
Prior to Bobby Orr‘s arrival, there was a consensus hockey GOAT (Greatest of All Time), Gordie Howe. That was due both to Howe’s dominance but, more importantly, his unprecedented longevity. Howe may have only been the best player in the NHL for six or so seasons, but he was one of the 10 best players in the NHL for over two decades.
Since then, there are a few other contenders for the throne. And the biggest knock against Howe is his Stanley Cups. Gordie Howe made the playoffs in 20 of his 26 NHL seasons. And he made the Stanley Cup Finals a remarkable 11 times. But he only won four Stanley Cups. One can make the LeBron James argument here: If Gordie Howe really is the GOAT, how come his finals record is 4-7?
Listen to us talk about Gordie Howe here:
Hall of Fame Class of 1972 Part 2: Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau
Gordie Howe’s Career:
NHL:
1946-71; 1979-80; 26 seasons, 25 quality
Totals:
801G (3rd All Time – Gretzky, Ovechkin – 1st All Time at his initial retirement by 232; Howe was the career leader in goals from 1963-64 through 1993-94),
1049A (10th All Time – 1st All Time at his initial retirement by 300; Howe was the career leader in assists from 1957-58 through 1987-88) for
1850P (4th – Gretzky, Jagr, Messier – 1st All Time at his initial retirement by nearly 600; Howe was the career leader in points from 1959-60 through 1989-90);
+160* (14th All Time at his initial retirement) in
1767 Games (2nd All Time – Marleau – 1st All Time at his retirement by 300; Howe was the career leader in Games Played from 1961-62 through 2019-20)
217.1 PS (4th All Time – Gretzky, Bourque, Luongo – 1st All Time at his retirement by nearly 69; Howe was the career leader from 1960-61 to 1994-95);
Howe is 2nd All Time in Offensive Point Shares (Gretzky) – he was 1st All Time at his initial retirement by nearly 69 and was the career leader from 1958-59 until 1993-94
Howe is the 15th/13th Forward All Time in Defensive Point Shares – at his initial retirement he was 3rd/1st All Time
Per Game: At his initial retirement in 1971, Howe was
11th All Time in GPG
t-5th in APG (Mikita, Esposito, Cowley, Beliveau)
5th in PPG (Esposito, Hull, Mikita, Beliveau; Howe was the career leader in PPG from 1953-54 through 1958-59)
Era: Of the 13 skaters to play in at least 1148 games (14 modern seasons) between 1946 and 1971, Howe is
1st in Goals (by 369)
1st in GPG (by 0.17)
1st in Assists (by 300)
1st in APG
1st in Points (669)
1st in PPG (by 0.25)
2nd in Plus/Minus
1st in Offensive Point Shares (by more than double his teammate)
8th (2nd/1st Forward) in Defensive Point Shares
1st in Point Shares (by 68.7)
82-game average: 37G, 48A for 86P, +7*; 8.7 PS
3-year peak (1950-53): 70-game average of 46G, 43A for 89P
Playoffs:
Totals:
68G (20th All Time, 3rd at his first retirement – Richard, Beliveau),
92A (2nd All Time at his first retirement – Beliveau – Howe was the career leader from 1961 through 1970) for
160P (t-22nd All Time, 2nd at his first retirement – Beliveau – Howe was the career leader 1964 through 1970),
+6* in
157 games (3rd All Time at his first retirement – Kelly, Beliveau)
Per Game: At his first retirement, Howe was
T-5th All Time in playoff GPG (Richard, Hull, Drillon, Beliveau)
T-6th All Time in playoff APG
T-4th All Time in playoff PPG (Hull, Beliveau, Blake)
Era: Of the 42 skaters to play in at least 82 playoff games between 1946 and 1971, Howe is
2nd in playoff Goals (behind by 12)
T-4th in playoff GPG
2nd in playoff Assists
4th in playoff APG
2nd in playoff Points (behind by 18)
3rd in playoff PPG
T-18th in playoff Plus/Minus
3rd in playoff Games
Adjustment for Era:
Hockey-Reference:
925G (1st All Time),
1265A (2nd – Gretzky) for
2190P (2nd – Gretzky)
Adjusted 82-game average: 43G, 59A for 102P (+16P per 82 games)
Per Game:
T-23rd All Time in Adjusted GPG
T-15th All Time in Adjusted APG
T-13th All Time in Adjusted PPG
VsX:
1181 Goals (1st All Time by over 300)
1711 Assists (2nd All Time – Gretzky)
2444 Points (1st All Time)
Per Game:
T-19th All Time in VsX GPG
22nd All Time in VsX APG
22nd All Time in VsX PPG
If the qualifier is raised to 820 games played, Howe is
5th All time in VsX GPG (Richard, Hull, Geoffrion, Lemieux)
3rd All Time in VsX APG (Gretzky, Lemieux)
4th All Time in VsX PPG (Gretzky, Lemieux, Richard)
If the qualifier is set to 1230 games, Howe is
1st All Time in VsX GPG
2nd All Time in VsX APG (Gretzky)
2nd All Time in VsX PPG (Gretzky)
Never traded.
WHA: 1973-79; 6 seasons, all quality174G (16th),
Totals:
334A (7th) for
508P (7th),
+136 (7th) in
419 games
Per Game:
6th All Time in APG
8th All Time in PPG
82-game average: 34G, 66A for 99P, +27
3-year peak (1973-76): 78-game average of 34G, 72A for 106P, +30
Until Bobby Orr, nobody had more Norris trophies than Doug Harvey. And, arguably, only other NHL defenceman could claim similar acclaim, Eddie Shore.
But things have changed. There have been numerous D who have eclipsed Harvey’s offensive accomplishments and Lidstrom tied him for the second most Norris trophies ever.
So where does Harvey rank now? Is he Top 3? Top 5? Top 10?
Listen to us talk about his Hall of Fame case here:
Bill Quackenbush played D for the Red Wings and Bruins for 14 years. He never won a Cup and he was not much of a scorer. (D didn’t score much before Red Kelly and Doug Harvey.)
But his career mostly predates the Norris. And he made three 1st All Star Teams and five total. That puts him in elite company.
So, does Bill Quackenbush belong in the Hockey Hall of Fame? Listen here:
Alex Delvecchio was 2nd All time in Assists and Points at his retirement and won three Stanley Cups. But he never led the league in any category, nor did he ever lead his team in scoring.
Why? Because he played on the same line as Gordie Howe.
So the big question is, how much of Delvecchio’s incredible production comes from laying next to the greatest winger of all time?
Listen to us discuss Alex Delvecchio’s Hall of Fame case here:
Marcel Pronovost played a long time, had some Norris nominations and won multiple Stanley Cups.
But was he ever the #1 D on his team? We don’t have ice time so we don’t know. On some of the Cup winners he was on, there are 8 Hall of Famers. Should we be inducting middle 6 and 2nd pair players of Cup winners?
In this episode, we discuss Marcel Provnost’s complicated case for the Hall of Fame:
