Harry Oliver was a WCHL star who mostly didn’t have the same kind of success in the NHL, except during the 1927 playoffs when he led the Bruins to a Stanley Cup.
When we discuss Harry Oliver’s Hall of Fame case, the big thing we struggle with is, was he a big enough star in the WCHL?
Grandfather of Ron, Bryan Hextall was one of the offensive stars of his era. And he was pretty good. If you fiddle with the VsX adjustment and do look at his per game numbers – something it’s not designed for – it paints Hextall as the best offensive player in NHL history in terms of adjusted PPG. That’s obviously not true and just exposes flaws in adjusted stats. But he must have been pretty good, right?
Listen to us talk about Bryan Hextall’s Hall of Fame case here:
Cecil “Babe” Dye quickly became one of the NHL’s early stars and, to this day, if the qualifier is low enough, he remains the all time leader in adjusted GPG.
But he also played relatively few games, his career was basically over by age 29 and he only ever won one Cup.
Listen to us talk about Babe Dye’s Hall of Fame case here:
Prior to Bobby Orr‘s arrival, there was a consensus hockey GOAT (Greatest of All Time), Gordie Howe. That was due both to Howe’s dominance but, more importantly, his unprecedented longevity. Howe may have only been the best player in the NHL for six or so seasons, but he was one of the 10 best players in the NHL for over two decades.
Since then, there are a few other contenders for the throne. And the biggest knock against Howe is his Stanley Cups. Gordie Howe made the playoffs in 20 of his 26 NHL seasons. And he made the Stanley Cup Finals a remarkable 11 times. But he only won four Stanley Cups. One can make the LeBron James argument here: If Gordie Howe really is the GOAT, how come his finals record is 4-7?
Listen to us talk about Gordie Howe here:
Hall of Fame Class of 1972 Part 2: Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau
Gordie Howe’s Career:
NHL:
1946-71; 1979-80; 26 seasons, 25 quality
Totals:
801G (3rd All Time – Gretzky, Ovechkin – 1st All Time at his initial retirement by 232; Howe was the career leader in goals from 1963-64 through 1993-94),
1049A (10th All Time – 1st All Time at his initial retirement by 300; Howe was the career leader in assists from 1957-58 through 1987-88) for
1850P (4th – Gretzky, Jagr, Messier – 1st All Time at his initial retirement by nearly 600; Howe was the career leader in points from 1959-60 through 1989-90);
+160* (14th All Time at his initial retirement) in
1767 Games (2nd All Time – Marleau – 1st All Time at his retirement by 300; Howe was the career leader in Games Played from 1961-62 through 2019-20)
217.1 PS (4th All Time – Gretzky, Bourque, Luongo – 1st All Time at his retirement by nearly 69; Howe was the career leader from 1960-61 to 1994-95);
Howe is 2nd All Time in Offensive Point Shares (Gretzky) – he was 1st All Time at his initial retirement by nearly 69 and was the career leader from 1958-59 until 1993-94
Howe is the 15th/13th Forward All Time in Defensive Point Shares – at his initial retirement he was 3rd/1st All Time
Per Game: At his initial retirement in 1971, Howe was
11th All Time in GPG
t-5th in APG (Mikita, Esposito, Cowley, Beliveau)
5th in PPG (Esposito, Hull, Mikita, Beliveau; Howe was the career leader in PPG from 1953-54 through 1958-59)
Era: Of the 13 skaters to play in at least 1148 games (14 modern seasons) between 1946 and 1971, Howe is
1st in Goals (by 369)
1st in GPG (by 0.17)
1st in Assists (by 300)
1st in APG
1st in Points (669)
1st in PPG (by 0.25)
2nd in Plus/Minus
1st in Offensive Point Shares (by more than double his teammate)
8th (2nd/1st Forward) in Defensive Point Shares
1st in Point Shares (by 68.7)
82-game average: 37G, 48A for 86P, +7*; 8.7 PS
3-year peak (1950-53): 70-game average of 46G, 43A for 89P
Playoffs:
Totals:
68G (20th All Time, 3rd at his first retirement – Richard, Beliveau),
92A (2nd All Time at his first retirement – Beliveau – Howe was the career leader from 1961 through 1970) for
160P (t-22nd All Time, 2nd at his first retirement – Beliveau – Howe was the career leader 1964 through 1970),
+6* in
157 games (3rd All Time at his first retirement – Kelly, Beliveau)
Per Game: At his first retirement, Howe was
T-5th All Time in playoff GPG (Richard, Hull, Drillon, Beliveau)
T-6th All Time in playoff APG
T-4th All Time in playoff PPG (Hull, Beliveau, Blake)
Era: Of the 42 skaters to play in at least 82 playoff games between 1946 and 1971, Howe is
2nd in playoff Goals (behind by 12)
T-4th in playoff GPG
2nd in playoff Assists
4th in playoff APG
2nd in playoff Points (behind by 18)
3rd in playoff PPG
T-18th in playoff Plus/Minus
3rd in playoff Games
Adjustment for Era:
Hockey-Reference:
925G (1st All Time),
1265A (2nd – Gretzky) for
2190P (2nd – Gretzky)
Adjusted 82-game average: 43G, 59A for 102P (+16P per 82 games)
Per Game:
T-23rd All Time in Adjusted GPG
T-15th All Time in Adjusted APG
T-13th All Time in Adjusted PPG
VsX:
1181 Goals (1st All Time by over 300)
1711 Assists (2nd All Time – Gretzky)
2444 Points (1st All Time)
Per Game:
T-19th All Time in VsX GPG
22nd All Time in VsX APG
22nd All Time in VsX PPG
If the qualifier is raised to 820 games played, Howe is
5th All time in VsX GPG (Richard, Hull, Geoffrion, Lemieux)
3rd All Time in VsX APG (Gretzky, Lemieux)
4th All Time in VsX PPG (Gretzky, Lemieux, Richard)
If the qualifier is set to 1230 games, Howe is
1st All Time in VsX GPG
2nd All Time in VsX APG (Gretzky)
2nd All Time in VsX PPG (Gretzky)
Never traded.
WHA: 1973-79; 6 seasons, all quality174G (16th),
Totals:
334A (7th) for
508P (7th),
+136 (7th) in
419 games
Per Game:
6th All Time in APG
8th All Time in PPG
82-game average: 34G, 66A for 99P, +27
3-year peak (1973-76): 78-game average of 34G, 72A for 106P, +30
Hooley Smith was one of those skaters who played multiple positions, because back then skaters did that a lot more. We think he was primarily a Centre or a RW, though he supposed to have played D at times.
Smith doesn’t have a lot of accomplishments, though he was among the best passers of his era. But he was an amateur star – winning an Allan Cup and just dominating on his way to an Olympic Gold – and won a few Cups.
He has a fairly mixed case and we’re not quite sure what to do. So listen to us talk about Hooley Smith’s Hall of Fame case here:
Bernie “Boom Boom” Geoffrion is one of the underrated great RWs in NHL history. Is he one of the greatest RWs of all time? Would he be better known had he not played for the Canadiens?
Listen to us talk about Geoffrion’s Hall of Fame case here:
Hall of Fame Class of 1972 Part 1: Bernie Geoffrion, Hap Holmes, Hooley Smith
Bernie Geoffrion’s Career:
NHL: 1950-64, 1966-68; 16 seasons, 14 quality
Totals:
393G (3rd All Time at his first retirement – Howe, Richard),
429A (12th All Time at his first retirement) for
822P (5th All Time at his first retirement – Howe, Richard, Lindsay, Beliveau),
+39* in
883 Games;
97.5 Point Shares (12th All Time at his first retirement);
At his 1st retirement, Geoffrion was
12th All time in Offensive Point Shares
21st Forward All Time in Defensive Point Shares
Per Game: At his first retirement, Geoffrion was
T-8th All Time in GPG
9th All Time in APG
T-5th All Time in PPG (Beliveau, Howe, Bathgate, Cowley)
Era: Of the 19 skaters to play in at least 738 games between 1950 and 1964, Geoffrion is
2nd in Goals (behind Howe by 125)
2nd in GPG (6 qualifying players)
6th in Assists
T-2nd in APG (7 qualifying players)
2nd in Points (behind by Howe by 355)
2nd in PPG (5 qualifying players)
6th in Plus/Minus
14th in Games
2nd in Offensive Point Shares (behind Howe by 44.9)
3rd Forward in Defensive Point Shares
4th in Point Shares
14th in Games
82-game average: 37G, 40A for 76P, +4*
3-year peak (1958-61): 70-game average of 39G, 50A for 89P, +5*
Playoffs:
58G (3rd All Time at his first retirement – Richard, Howe),
60A (3rd All Time at his first retirement – Howe, Harvey) for
118P (3rd All Time at his first retirement – Howe, Richard),
+3* (t-21st All Time at his 1st retirement) in
132 Games (5th All Time at his 1st retirement – Kelly, Richard, Howe, Harvey)
Per Game: At his first retirement, Geoffrion was
T-6th All Time in playoff GPG
13th All Time in playoff APG
5th All Time in playoff PPG (Beliveau, Blake, Howe, Richard)
Era: Of the 13 skaters to play in at least 82 playoff games between 1950 and 1964, Geoffrion is
1st in playoff Goals
4th in playoff GPG
2nd in playoff Assists
6th (3rd last among qualifying players) in playoff APG
2nd in playoff Points
3rd in playoff PPG
T-4th in playoff Plus/Minus
1st in playoff Games
Adjustment for era:
Hockey-Reference:
464G
518A for
982P
Adjusted 82-game average: 43G, 48A for 91P (+15P per 82 games)
Per Game: Geoffrion is
T-22nd All Time in Adjusted GPG;
If the qualifier is set to 820 games, Geoffrion is
T-6th All Time in Adjusted GPG
14th All Time in Adjusted PPG
VsX:
595G
696A
1093
Per Game: Geoffrion is
19th All Time in VsX Adjusted GPG;
If the qualifier is set to 820 games, Geoffrion is
3rd All Time in VsX Adjusted GPG (Richard, Bobby Hull)
Ace Bailey was briefly the best forward in the league. But he had only really great year and three good years. And he didn’t perform well in the playoffs
Listen to us talk about Ace Bailey’s Hall of Fame case:
Andy Bathgate won the Hart (though we don’t agree) and he was arguably the 2nd best regular season RW of his era (if you don’t count the years he overlapped with Richard).
But his playoff numbers are not great and the only Cup he won he had quite a diminished role.
So, does Andy Bathgate belong in the Hockey Hall of Fame?
